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RACMOD

Saturday morning, I rode RACMOD with John, Claire and David. The route took us down the Lake Washington and Cedar River trails to Maple Valley, then back through Issaquah. Since I started from home, it worked out to just over fifty miles at a good pace with great company.

Bikely originally depicted the route as having 3,600' ascent. However, though I was tired, I would have placed it at "about 3,000." John reported about 2,700' on his barometric-based bike computer.

Looking closer at the profile:

there are three spurts of precipitous dips and climbs that I don't "remember." One theory is that there is no topological data for that point and the Bikely/Google software calculating the ascent assumes a value of "zero." This would be easily testable if speed was recorded.

A factor I've observed on other rides like Tour de Blast -- and wouldn't be much of a factor here -- are some topological mapping software products do not handle cumulative ascent when bridges are involved. For example, consider a trip between points A and B on the diagram below. A human would see the cumulative ascent is 500' -- the rider descends down 500' to the bridge, crosses the chasm, and climbs 500' to point B. The program might rely on the geographical representation, erroneously reporting 1,000' of elevation gain, as if the bridge wasn't there.

Another source of error occurs when using instruments whose precision is comparable to the error. For example, when I did STP a few years ago, I came up with an accumulated elevation gain of around 4,000' feet using the simple barometric altimeter in my heart rate monitor. Those who have ridden STP know it's the flattest 200 miles one can do in this half of Washington, and 4k seems about right. However, there were other riders arguing passionately that their GPSes reported 6,000 - 10,000 in cumulative ascent. A 10,000' gain on STP is unbelievably high.

Just for kicks, I exported my barometric data into a spreadsheet. When I added up the raw ascents, I got 5,435'. As the Polar HRM only reported changes of 5 feet, it tempers the error somewhat. Polar wouldn't tell me what their smoothing algorithm was, though they claimed that their tests show it estimates to within 5%.

For comparison, during the first 12 hours of the first day of that same STP, my Garmin eTrex recorded 4,400' of ascent before its batteries went kaput. Unfortunately, I didn't retrieve the original data for comparison. However, I did observe that while the GPS is more precise, the error accumulation (at least on my eTrex) was pretty scary. For example, while I stood in line for the Sani-Can on a flat parking lot, the GPS recorded a climb of 20', taken in one foot chunks. Extrapolate that over 200 miles, and it's easy to see where that 10,000' number might have come from.


Anyone done a serious analysis of the elevation gains?
9 Comments:
Brian wrote on (April 3, 2007 1:06 AM)

Sounds like an interesting ride. I should try to hook up with y'all (but y'all are probably faster and stronger than me).

Scout wrote on (April 3, 2007 4:25 AM)

I *know* there's a joke about elevation gain and the Sani-Can in there somewhere, but I just can't get to it!

John wrote on (April 3, 2007 7:51 AM)

I've noticed the same "erroneous ascent" on another Google Map hack, Routeslip.com. That was part of my motivation for getting the Polar HRM with altitude. It is better than the map's estimation of ascent, but not perfect by any means. If mounted to the handlebars, it seems like it does a reasonable job. If I wear it on my wrist, however, it seems like my climbing is way more overstated (perhaps it is all those enthusiastic left-turns I'm signaling).

My final total was 2,850' for Saturday. As for being too fast for Brian, probably not. I go downhill very fast, but my up needs work yet.

Jim wrote on (April 3, 2007 11:38 AM)

Scout: (snicker)

Brian: I don't think we'd be too fast for you; I have the potential energy thing working for me on downhills, but that's about all.

Gardner Cohen wrote on (April 3, 2007 12:54 PM)

I played around with post-processing etrex vista track logs. If you apply the classic avocet 50 algorithm (no credit for ascent until you've actually climbed 20 or 30 feet, and ratchet when on climbs, i.e., ignore phantom 10 foot dips), you end up with ascent numbers nearly identical to the polar s7xx. Garmin gives you credit for climbing a sine wave on level ground.

Claire wrote on (April 3, 2007 7:07 PM)

Regarding RACMOD's pace: because I was afraid of being a real drag on the group, I got my husband to join us so we could do it on the tandem. While we did it at a relatively slow pace for the tandem, it was blazingly fast for me compared to being on a single.

If we were to do it again, with me on a single, Brian, I can't imagine that we'd be so incredibly strong/fast that you'd be left behind.

For what it's worth, this was the second time I've done an expedition with Jim, and the first time with John. John is as I'd expect him to be. Jim has been quieter than I'd expect as he is full of words on-line.

Claire wrote on (April 3, 2007 7:16 PM)

PS -

I'm guessing the first ten miles are to Renton; the second ten miles is basically the gradual rise on the Cedar River Trail. That means that the first two false ascents/descents appear to be just before the climb to Lake Francis (no bridge crossing there). The third one, though, could be when we crossed over Hwy 18, and could have easily been registered as a descent to the highway and return back up.

Steve wrote on (April 5, 2007 2:25 AM)

> One theory is that there is no topological data for that point
> and the Bikely/Google software calculating the ascent assumes
> a value of "zero."

Ah, the joys of interpreting "NODATA" values...

A few years ago I had some "fun" with a raster Digital Elevation Model (DEM); the dataset that all students in our environmental modelling course were given to use. I was tasked with writing a nutrient flow model into which the students could feed the DEM.

The DEM was created using vector contours and spot-height data exported from a GIS package. The GIS package used -9999 as the NODATA value. So did my nutrient flow model. The DEM wasn't rectangular - there was a large area of NODATA values at the southern end.

Unfortunately the interpolation software package that had created the DEM hadn't been informed that -9999 was the NODATA value; the DEM ended up with a one-cell wide, 11,000m cliff along the southern edge. It drove my nutrient-flow model crazy :-S

The *really* disturbing part was that although the DEM had been used for several years, no-one (including the lecturer) had noticed the cliff...

John wrote on (April 7, 2007 5:18 PM)

On today's ride, I registered 1,380 feet climbing on my Polar 725. When I load it into the Polar "Precision" Training Software, it morfs into 1381 (ok, I can chalk that up to the integer-only display on the watch/hrm). Then I load the hrm file into Training Peaks, and it magically multiplies itself into 2560 feet.

Is there some sort of discounting/leveling going on in the Polar that TrainingPeaks.com is ignoring?

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